Patrick Oancia [00:00:04]:
Hey. It’s Patrick Oancia, and I’m the founder and co-deweloper of the Baseworks method. So the Baseworks method at its core focuses on the cognitive and perceptual aspects of physical movement. Our transmission podcast episodes explore both concrete and abstract realizations that emerge from the commitment to any kind of practice or pursuit to achieve life goals. And our aim with these productions is to find a common vocabulary to help better describe these experiences. We also produce companion Reflection episodes that dive deeper into the topics discussed so we really recommend subscribing to be notified about all subsequent releases. Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez is a choreographer, dancer and a teacher of contemporary dance and yoga. After graduating from high school, Maria Lucia joined the Ballet Experimental Contemporaneo Dance Company in Colombia and participated in various international events in Medellin and Cartagena.

Patrick Oancia [00:01:04]:
She later attended the National Centre For Contemporary Dance in France just prior to being accepted to the Folkwang University of Arts in Germany. Since 2000, she’s performed around the world in various productions. And in 2004, Maria Lucia and Mohan Thomas co founded TANZMOTO Dance Company. And as an annex to that collaborated with the renowned choreographer Royston Maldoom. In 2019, she returned to Colombia as a choreographer, project director and dance teacher for the program of the Municipal School of Arts of the Municipal Institute of Culture and Tourism in Bucaramanga. And in 2021, she founded Mukti Espacio Vivo which really underscores her initiatives toward community building and interdisciplinary movement education. So I met Maria Lucia in 2010 when her and Mohan were in Japan performing a choreography for the UN Go For Biodiversity summit that year. So she’d heard about our studio in Tokyo and her and Mohan came down to with us during that visit.

Patrick Oancia [00:02:08]:
That was a catalyst to some very cool collaborations between Japan and Germany. And over the next few years, that led to me being invited to Germany to teach and collaborate with TANZMOTO several times and us inviting Maria Lucia and Mohan to Tokyo to teach and perform. Asia and I recorded this episode with Maria Lucia when we were in Colombia this year during our recent collaboration between Mukti Espacio Vivo, the Autonomous University of Bucaramanga, and Baseworks. It covers a lot of ground in relation to Maria Lucia’s life and work that really highlights our long standing collaborative connection. And I’d like to add that this Conversation is a really good example of achieving our show’s initiative to examine deep and diversified work and the kind of insights that emerge from each experience. And as usual, references to everything discussed can be found in the show notes.

Patrick Oancia [00:03:04]:
So, Maria Lucia, it’s, great to be here with you in Colombia, and we’re very excited to talk to you today about the all this different stuff that you’ve done in your life and what led you from Colombia to Europe and then from Europe back to Colombia and everything that you’re doing now. So thank you very much for agreeing to be our guest on the transmission conversations.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:03:27]:
Thank you, guys.

Patrick Oancia [00:03:28]:
And, there’s a lot of area we wanna cover. So we’d like to start first maybe just as, as a kind of an insight for the people that are gonna be watching the episode and for listening to the episode. First of all, what led you to contemporary Dance? And what age did you start at? Or was it contemporary dance you started? Or was it some other dance modality and you ended up in contemporary dance? Please give us a background on dance first.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:03:59]:
Yes. So first, I started around maybe 7 years. My mother brought us to an academy for jazz Ballet, so I started with that. The teacher was very expressive and, contemporary dance— at that moment I never heard about it—and I think the city also didn’t have this contemporary dance at that time. But then, somehow through life and through my family background with a lot of artists and the culture in Colombia—it’s like you grow with dancing even if it’s salsa, cumbia, all our folkloristic techniques that we have in our culture. So dancing was always very involved. But really related to contemporary dance: when I finished my school, I got in contact with contemporary dance for a company and with one choreographer, and I just loved it.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:04:56]:
So, you joined a dance company in Bucaramanga?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:05:00]:
Yes. Exactly. When I finished the school, I got a chance to be in a project for 6 months that turned into a little bit more than a year, and we were working like from Monday to Saturday, every day, sometimes also Sundays, like 8 hours a day and, this was a great opportunity and the real very important moment of my life related to dance. Because it’s like I tell my parents, I wanna have 6 months —1 semester— before I go to the University to study psychology, and I just want to dance. So, my whole family supported me to do that and, at the academy, when I went in, the teacher told me: “There is audition”—and I’ve never done dance audition before—”and you go to the audition and then it’s for 6 months. They are looking for dancers because the professional ones left to Europe to study at university and then they are trying to get new people”. So I did the audition, I went in and, it turns like the the director of the company was my… he was dancing with me when I was 7 years old. He was really like, what is that? You know, for me, well, he was like so big, the wow. And, yeah, and somehow I ended up on this company for 6 months and then, after these 6 months, my parents were like, okay, you have to go to the university.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:06:23]:
And I was like, oh, no, I am not going to the university. And I got, like, almost like a year, year and something and from there on I prepared… he kind of, like, prepared me to go to to Europe.

Patrick Oancia [00:06:37]:
So you just trashed the idea of going to become a psychologist?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:06:42]:
Yes, completely.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:06:43]:
But did you originally want to become a psychologist? Since which age?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:06:48]:
I always wanted to be a dancer somehow, but psychologist— I loved it as well and I always liked to be with people. That’s why from the beginning on, I knew I want to be a dancer, also at the university for Arts, but I always thought I want to work, as a teacher, like, the interchange with people, the social communication and exchanging experiences and create together, I always knew I wanted to do it. Somehow I have some memories of being the living room when we couldn’t go to the academy because of different reasons. I would put my 80s look with the trousers and all that and I would rehearse at home. We always did some rehearsals and performances and, you know, always danced. So I always had it on my heart, but it was a feeling of dream, you know, something that you see far away. And somehow this choreographer told me: It’s okay, little by little, it’s the end of the 6 months. And I saw those girls from Bucaramanga, he was preparing different girls to go to the universities in Europe. For me, going to Europe was like a dream— not for me. I thought it’s maybe for really rich people to go to Europe. And, he said to me, “You can make your dream come true, and I can help you. ” He was really important.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:08:19]:
His name is Eugenio Cueto. And and with this strength, like, he said, you can make it possible, but you have to do it now because of your age. So I was turning 18 and then this is kind of like for Europe late to start University. I mean just perfect.

Patrick Oancia [00:08:37]:
The interest in psychology continued obviously,

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:08:41]:
Yes, yes.

Patrick Oancia [00:08:42]:
And I guess we’ll talk more about that later because we’ve had many conversations about how people think and the interconnection between, working with your body and and perception and,

Asia Shcherbakova [00:08:55]:
And emotion.

Patrick Oancia [00:08:56]:
And emotions and how that would actually lead to the development of relationships and, or understanding of which relationships you don’t wanna be in, for example. You know, so can you give us an idea of the timeline? So I know that… Was it 2000 that you went to Germany?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:09:17]:
Yes. To Europe. Right.

Patrick Oancia [00:09:19]:
Okay. So that was Germany straight. Right?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:09:21]:
No. No. I I went first to France.

Patrick Oancia [00:09:23]:
Okay. So you went first to France. And how long were you in France?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:09:26]:
I think around 3 months.

Patrick Oancia [00:09:28]:
Okay.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:09:28]:
I was there, yes.

Patrick Oancia [00:09:30]:
So in 3 months where in Paris?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:09:32]:
I was in Paris, yes, but at first I went to Angers— there is a contemporary university specialized in contemporary dance for 2 years. I went there and there were like over 350, dancers applying, beautiful dancers applying to study there, because it was just study for 2 years and, I passed all the first tests and then the second day, we were around 30 or something, and then I did 2 more tests and then I was out and then they took 7 women, 7 men. It was really hard, so I was very proud and it was exciting the whole time, was amazing. But the director of the of the university, we worked with, and another colleague also there, he said to us, we were like, we don’t know what to do. I mean, when I saw all these dancers, like, I’m not the only one in the world that want to be a dancer, professional dancer, and I see all these beautiful girls and men and all these people, I told him because I have a ticket for 15 days and money for 15 days and clothes for 15 days and then the director said, you know what? You can stay here for a month and you can be our student for a month and he printed me a paper with all the universities in Europe and he said to me like, don’t go, don’t come back to Colombia, you are in the best time of auditions, so you just don’t go, you go for it, and I really recommend you Germany and I was like no Germany, no, the whole time I was like no, I want France so much.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:11:16]:
The company gave me like a scholarship to study French for 3 months. I loved it. I had a great beautiful teacher. I love French and, and then I stayed for a month there and I wanted so much to stay in France that I did 2 additions at the conservatorium. This is before University, but I thought, I never did it and although I was 18 already, 19, I was looking still very young, and they were coming. And I passed both. And both of them told me go to Germany. I’m like, no, I’m scared about the Germans. I knew very little about Germany, you know, just history at the school and it was panic enough, you know, and, but…

Patrick Oancia [00:11:59]:
Not to mention the language, I mean, it would have been it would have been easier for you to learn French than German that’s for sure.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:12:06]:
Yes, yes. And then at the Nantes Conservatory, the director said to me, you know what, I hold your place, but I really think you should go to Germany. So, for me, it was like, okay, everybody’s telling me to go to Germany. What is that? And she say, it’s very clear that you want to be a professional dancer and sometimes the girls at the conservatorium maybe just change their minds, but you are so clear with that and your body is still like you could really start the university. So, what about, go to Germany and if it doesn’t work in Germany, you come back. And this kind, like, gave me…

Patrick Oancia [00:12:55]:
Confidence.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:12:56]:
Yes, a lot of confidence. So I had a friend — in that company where I was, we were dancing together and we had a very nice relationship. She was in Germany. And I already was like, everything finished. Money finished, the ticket already gone. My family supported me, like, I was like, what shall I do? And they were, like, very scared as well. It was the first time I went out of the house and they were, like, we support you. Go for it. It was very scary, but was also very exciting, was a mixture of lot of emotions and this girl called Andrea Mendez, she called me like, don’t worry, come with the bus, you don’t care about money, you don’t care about food, about apartment, you get everything for me and even I do your papers.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:13:44]:
And I was like, what’s that? You know, like, this support, like, life is just telling me just go to Germany straight. And I was like, okay. Thank you so much. And I was trying to listen to my heart. My family and my friends were saying to me, listen to the voice of God, but I couldn’t listen. I’m like, what means the? You know? Now I understand what really means and how important it is to listen to your inner voice. Yeah.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:14:10]:
Mhmm. And, you went to Essen directly?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:14:13]:
Yes. I went directly to Essen. So I went there to the university 1 month before the audition so I could prepare, I could prepare the solo, I could prepare everything and, and then the audition, I think, was, like, 3 days. At the last day, I was also putting on my hair, like, it was amazing, intensive. And, yeah, when they said my name, that I went through, like, all different thoughts, I didn’t know if to cry of happiness or scaredness or or sadness because of what it really meant for me and my culture and my family and my dream. So it was like, 5 years and then I, at that time, if you didn’t have any job or something, you had to come back. Now it has changed, like, they give you certain time to find a job and then to come back.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:15:06]:
But when I finished, I mean, I was working with my ex husband, Mohan Thomas. We created very early a company, in 2003, and we were working as freelancers, so we could improve a certain stability to stay. And my, Spanish and Flamenco teacher, he asked what were my plans like. And so I told him and he said, I would really love to have you as a student, if you want I can apply and ask that you can stay with me and do 1 year specialization in Flamenco and Spanish dance and this was a dream for me as a little girl, so I thought, wow, fantastic and also this brings so much support to the contemporary, the character expression, and the rhythms, different rhythms and I said yes and he said, okay. Let’s try and, it happens. So I stayed 1 year more at university and parallel to that, I was always working. Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:16:01]:
So I mean, just to recap, so this was… you did arrive in Essen as well in the year 2000?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:16:08]:
Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:16:49]:
Okay. And then you stayed in Essen right up until 2018. Until you and you returned to Colombia after that. So we’ll go into that timeline a little bit later, but, and, you know, thanks very much for the outline of that, the transition to university. And then we’ll talk a little bit about TANZMOTO and Mohan Thomas because that’s, that’s our connection, initially, well, our connection is initially when you came to Tokyo in 2010 to dance. And you had heard about our studio in Tokyo and and you and Mohan came down for some classes and and that’s how we met and that’s how our our collaborative relationship built from that point for.

Patrick Oancia [00:16:50]:
And, you know, we did many things in both Germany and in in Tokyo. And some of that stuff will also go into the show notes. But, what I’d like to talk about in a little bit at this point too is what we’re always trying to sort of elaborate and unpack in the transmission episodes is, the types of realizations that have come up from, having committed to learning something or trying to achieve some sort of, you know, a skill or, pursue a passion in in life. And we talked a lot about your your education and, you know, some of the, you know, the the the different, challenges and and strong points that you had as, you know, going through dance training, dance education. But I would like to talk a little bit about education because we had a conversation the other day about your experience in university and, and maybe how education in some ways might have changed from that point to now. On our very first transmission, we had another contemporary dancer, Matan Levkovich, and we talked a lot with him also about the relationship that he had with certain choreographers. He’d mentioned something to the effect that it is it is challenging at times for him to strike a balance between, you know, feeling nurtured and exploring that creative potential. We talked about adversity, challenge.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:18:13]:
Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:18:14]:
And you and I have also talked about this as being something which shapes your perspective. So some people will hold up well against pressure and other people won’t hold up so well. As we talked about the other day, sometimes when we don’t hold up so well initially, if we reflect and think about that, what comes out of those situations particularly when they’re, when it comes to interactions with somebody that you work with, whether that’s a teacher or choreographer or collaboration partner, what you can get out of that in terms of what what comes out of that learning can be something which helps you to continue to move forward but not to give up and not to leave your pursuit of passion. So I’m sorry I diverged a bit because I had to make some reference to what we were talking about on our previous podcast. Yeah. But you’d mentioned school being a great experience. You also mentioned school being quite challenging at times and, you know, it’s not a question of talking about whether we think it’s a good thing or a bad thing, but I’d like to know from you about some of the challenges that that you had in the process of dancing in the midst of trying to sort of, fit into the educational expectations and formats there were at that time.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:19:31]:
And also maybe another society.

Patrick Oancia [00:19:33]:
In another society, another culture.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:19:35]:
Exactly.

Patrick Oancia [00:19:36]:
So you had a great experience. Obviously, you came out on the right side of of, but can you share a little bit of with us about maybe the challenging times that you had along with the really positive times the you had and how those how those, you know, changed the way that you saw your profession? So you you saw the creative side of the things that you do as well.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:19:59]:
Yes, exactly what Asia had said, I asked myself certain times, many times, and also the people asked me like why you are here? In this culture that is so different the your culture. So I’m actually going to comment that I feel so thankful to have been in Germany because Germany is like if we we would say, like, Colombia black, Germany white, or whatever, but it it feel like this kind of a very opposite different culture. So this enriches your experience in life and your contact with yourself. So I had experiences that were really challenging for me at the University having, occuring directly to me and also what I was observing for my colleagues. Some of them really just give up, you know, this is what you just named at the beginning, and I realized how important it was and it is still these skills and fundamentals that my family just gave me and how important it is, to have contact with yourself. Like if something doesn’t work around you, that you don’t just collapse immediately and everything gonna be destroyed. How important is to have a good character as well. I was very young, and I had a beautiful family from my ex husband that really support me as well, so I could speak also and feel like this is my community as well.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:21:30]:
So I didn’t have too many best friends to speak about it, but they were they gave me really the the support to be to be there in those hard moments. And when I was always interested about study psychology I always tried to understand the other, why the other does certain things. Colombia is an amazing country. We are very social, very lovely. I say from my perspective and what I have been receiving since as long as I can remember, but I also have been seeing a lot of not-so-nice-things about the culture, and then it was always nice how my parents always tried to tell me not to judge the other and to see, do you know what maybe they are really going through? that would make them do what they are doing, and which kind of level of conscience they have. So this perspective, I appreciate very much for my parents: because it was always, don’t just react to others, but trying to be on their side. So, I am so happy I had that. Because at University I had some situations that I would just take it immediately so personally, like, it’s because of me, you know, and then I always said to people, respectfully of course, who were specialized psychologists, that I studied both at the same time (dance and psychology), because it was an exercise for me to understand the point of view of the other. Why maybe I was thinking like Why? If they are teachers. Why? If we are in such an intimate momen. Because a dance class is really “intimacy”.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:23:10]:
You are not trying to hide anything. Actually, you want to open your body, your soul, your emotions, your ideas, like your psyche, like everything and then it’s a very sensitive moment to receive orders, ideas, corrections, information. So for me, it was like so sensitive that I couldn’t understand why sometimes the way was so hard. But at the same time I was just trying to see from outside. So I have Asians, from Hungary, from Russia, from Poland, from France, for England, from Germany. The teachers were from all over the world and my friends colleagues as well. So it was very interesting to see what they did maybe not to me, but maybe they did it to Asia and I see Asia like fragile, like vulnerable, and for me it was like unacceptable, some things, but still even if it wasn’t done to me, I am very sensitive, so I could just feel what happened to her and that it wasn’t right, but at the same time, it is very difficult to criticize. So for me it was more about trying to understand the person without allowing the other one to disrespect me, and this was also a process of growing for me. So, the schoolI I came from, my family, my academies, everything was very lovely and respectful.

Patrick Oancia [00:24:39]:
One thing I would like to add to that is the I think it’s really cool what your parents said. Because it’s really difficult when you see somebody or when you do something that’s really fucked up. Or when you experience something towards you which you think I why, how come that happened to me? It’s difficult to set aside the immediate judgment

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:25:23]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [00:25:25]:
And so you have, you know, that person. Is a bad person. And and think, okay so hold it like what is that person really experiencing in their life? And I think that that, you know, it there’s a lot of polarization around this subject in both in psychology and society and when it comes to interpersonal relationships and work or in collaborations where everybody’s very quick to judge and cancel the other person. So when you say cancel, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term “Cancel culture.” Right?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:25:56]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [00:25:57]:
Which is something that seems to be quite, you know, has become a lot more prominent now throughout, you know, sociopolitics and identity politics. To take a step back and think, well, we don’t actually know that person. We don’t know what that person’s experienced.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:26:12]:
Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:26:14]:
We don’t have to know them. But at the same time, how much energy is gonna go into feeling terrible and judging as opposed to thinking, well, that’s interesting. What would drive that? And there’s a part of it was just like, okay, accept, learn, and move forward.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:26:34]:
Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:26:34]:
And, easier said than done, when something’s directed immediately at you. But I wanna ask now in those moments where you I’m not talking about so much growing up in Colombia and seeing bad things happen, but in the moments where you experience something which felt very invasive to you, like something that was in the midst of your dance training, you know, we don’t have to specify what it was, but can you try to articulate for us the initial feeling that you have had. Then how you analyzed it and then what you got from it. Can you just give us an example? You don’t really have to if you don’t wanna share the actual experience, you don’t have to.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:27:16]:
Yes. I think, in general, you know, if I tell it exactly with the details, maybe the perspective for the other is like, oh, it’s so stupid, you know, it’s like it’s not so significant. But I think of the emotion. I got a certain situation with some choreographer at the University and, and I got very confused and I got very frustrated. So, I was asking my colleagues, how do you see the situation? Because maybe I thought I am really doing everything wrong, is everything bad somehow, but it’s like, I see the other ones and I want to understand, you know. And I remember so well that they were saying to me we don’t get it, we don’t know what is going on, you know. I went home and I was crying every night and then at one moment my ex husband said, you know, if you come back again like the, I really will speak with him, no? But he was really angry. What I learned, I realized, okay, because maybe, you know, your ego plays a lot with you, you know, The people I was asking… Also, they came to me and said, but why he’s doing that with you? And I say, I don’t know. Then I realized, okay, it’s not only me who is feeling that this is not right. Yeah, this is not the way, so it’s not just about my ego, it’s also like the situation is confusing. So, I thought I’d try reflecting on that and, it’s like I wanted to respond also to the project.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:28:56]:
I didn’t want to cause drama because the ego can be very quick to cause drama, but it was still a hard time, every rehearsal was hard. And then I realized that maybe being in the room with him, maybe I reminded him of something, maybe not consciously— maybe my way of being, or maybe form, physical form, I don’t know exactly. And that situation helped me a lot to proactively try to understand others. So I thought, it has nothing to do with me, it has something to do with him, but how I find the balance? It was till taking a lot of energy and for me it’s not like I, okay, I excuse you, it’s your problem, nothing to do with me… I was repeating this phrase, you know, “it’s not about me, it’s about you,” internally. This phrase is going with me my whole life. Like, this is very nice because it brings you a little bit down, but while I won’t say that it didn’t take me energy, emotions, bad times, you know, all that. But it also tought me a lot, yeah? Yo really try to be concious, to understand that if it’s not about you to just let it go and not store it in your heart for your mind, and especially also in the body. So, the university have been a very important part of my life and a very important exercise because sometimes you have the things, you know the things, but to practice it is just so difficult. Yeah, and it is still an exercise in my life because I am also very emotional, I am very lovely, but sometimes, especially in the moments when I I am very tired…

Patrick Oancia [00:30:50]:
Yeah. I’ve experienced a little bit with you now here. But I mean the really it’s interesting because before when when you used to come to visit Japan, I used to visit Germany. Maybe I wasn’t, maybe… but I know that now probably even though you were very busy with what you were doing with TANZMOTO dance company and the teaching, I see now, you know, and I really empathize with you, because running a studio, a physical studio and having to manage teachers, that’s a big challenge. So even if you aren’t even tired, if something happens which challenges what you thought the way it was gonna be that it depletes you of energy, but that’s it, that’s a interesting thing. Yeah.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:31:37]:
Yeah. Yeah. So it’s still like, well, you know, we as a teacher, we we repeat and repeat and and this is actually very good because you remember and remember. Because we forget so quickly. Especially when we have these situations, unexpected situations that bring you out of your balance. AndI try to say to my students and say to myself, it’s a daily challenge, you know? So you wanna do it right, you wanna do it good, you wanna be conscious, but like Asia explained at the conference, sometimes it’s just 99% or maybe also 99.99% that we are not conscious. When I went home after the conference, I was like, oh my god. But it’s so true, you know, like some seconds of being really conscious and I feel these are the most beautiful moments in my life. Because, when you are really in the moment, it’s like there’s no frame, no feeling of time. And I really have, I think, or maybe it’s just an illusion — will you say, Asia? I don’t know— but I think maybe it is really these moments of deep sadness or deep happiness or excitement that you really feel like “all is one” You know?

Asia Shcherbakova [00:33:03]:
Mhmm. But excitement not in a way like you’re being hyperemotional, but excitement in a way, like a hyperenergized state, a state of awareness? What exactly do you mean by excitement here?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:33:17]:
Both. I mean, like, a very emotional moment just like when I… I remember very well when the son of my sister was born, I was the first one to touch him. And it’s like, the feeling of time stops, and you are just completely aware. Or when my auntie just passed from life to death, just this moment, this last breath and the you’re living that. Like it’s no thought, nothing that interrupts you, this real moment. But I also had it in some dance experiences or meditation experiences that you really feel like “all is one” and you are part of this whole. Yeah. Yes.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:34:04]:
I’d like to ask about how you encountered yoga when you were in Germany and how it affected your dancing. And also, I would like to maybe ask you to reflect a little bit on, was there a part in your education that was missing that you were able to find in yoga and, explain a little bit how your experience of dancing has changed.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:34:32]:
Yes. So when I, I got in contact with yoga, I had some problems with my knees. So I went to the orthopedic in Germany and he would say you have to quit your dancing. I said okay, thank you, goodbye, and, and then I thought where’s that, you know, like whatever. So, Mohan said to me, you know what, if I really look to your legs, I realize you don’t have so much muscles here, and, and then he said I, he already did some yoga before and he had a very good teacher and he said, if you want, I can teach you some, asana, some practice that you can really get strength from and then will protect your knees because at the University we did, especially in the ballet class, we had to do very slow movements to which, really you need strong muscles. So, and then he just explained to me, he gave me, like, a little explanation about the technique. And he said, before I teach you some asanas, I want that you understand that these 1000 year-old technique is not just forf getting muscles. But he kind of like explained to me a little bit about other dimensions. I will never forget it. I don’t want to get too long on that, but he he gave it to me.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:35:57]:
I’m very happy that he did that, and then I did some classes with him and I got completely in love. So I felt inside of me, This is what I was looking, I was always looking for. This was my inner voice. This is, this is what I was always looking for. Why— I understood that through the years. Why I had this feeling. Because sometimes you have voices and feelings, but you don’t really connect consciously with everything. And, as soon as I connected, so I practice always before our first class. It was always at 9 o’clock in the morning, so I was doing, like, at 8 or 7:30, first, my yoga practice by myself. He tought me some. I bought, the light of yoga from Iyengar, and I was reading a lot and trying to to do exactly how he was saying and Mohan was just looking at me sometimes. And I was very lucky because he had very good teachers, and it was all private classes [from a teacher] whenever he came from New York, he passed away already, he wasa student, a disciple, of Dharmamitra, and he was a choreographer and dancer and then whenever he came to Germany, he always gave a class for 2 students — for Carlos Paz, a Mexican, and for Mohan. And he said, because Mohan, she is your girlfriend, at the time, he said she can come.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:37:21]:
He was from Venezuela. He was amazing. So, I started getting in contact with that, and what I felt and then through the years, I understand more and more, why it’s been so important in my life and for my career. It brought me or gave me a different perspective of the relationship of my my being to life, my connection with my body, the regulation of the energy, like, how I could, even if I am tired, I’m confused, I’m this kind of moment, like, everything is too overwhelming, too many things to do, the concentration, and the spiritual connection, like, there is something inside and in the whole cosmos that I could feel it stronger. The help of perspective—when we were speaking about what my family gave me— and then I understood more, like, when I started practicing yoga also, I cloud feel the body as a whole, you know, not just like parts, but feeling the whole body, always, it gave me also release, and many, many things, that when maybe I am too tired or too tense and to be aware of the whole—this is very important for a dancer. The connection with the space… I cannot say I learned it from yoga orI learned it from dancing. It’s like, sometimes, you know, I have I have heard from my teachers, “be careful of that,” or “do this, and this, and this, and this” and maybe suddenly comes a yoga teacher, then I get it, or the other way around. So I cannot say it’s just this or just this, but I really felt and feel still that my dance and my connection with myself, with the with the cosmos, with the people, with the space, it got more profound with yoga. I really felt it, like, sometimes if I would learn something new, I felt it was good for me just to do Sun Salutations before. If I had a performance, before I went to dance, to do the performance, I would always take a moment for myself on the stage, being alone, walking around, getting in contact with the space, like, looking for, like, okay. Now there’s nobody, but after, it’ll be full, hopefully, and how to spread my energy across the space, and these feelings… And doing some Sun Salutations, helped me to kind of organize. Like, my heart was like [bu-ru-ru], and I was thinking, why I’m in this profession? I’m crazy.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:40:14]:
Sometimes adrenaline was too high and this kind of, like, I don’t know, it’s like you have a bottle with gas close and you do like, shake it, shake it, shake it, shake it, the you stop it and it’s like [tshhhhhhhh].

Patrick Oancia [00:40:28]:
What, which practice are you making reference to specifically there? Too much adrenaline? Performance, or yoga or what?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:40:35]:
Performance. No, I mean, before the performance, I felt always if I do….

Patrick Oancia [00:40:39]:
Anxiety.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:41:02]:
Yes, anxiety, like, crazy. And, and then I realized if I do some some visualization and some yoga practice before, I was more connected, and I realized that I learned also much better. Like, I can focus more.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:41:03]:
Do you still have performance anxiety or anxiety before performance?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:41:08]:
Always. It’s like people tell me it’s like maybe it’s I don’t know how many hundred of times being on the stage but I always feel like like, like, yeah, the heart gets quicker and yeah, always. But then the relationship is a little bit different because I have, like, I have some tools and these tools kind of like work for me. And this kind of adrenaline, it’s kind of like a little bit good to have it, sometimes if you don’t have any, it’s strange, you know. So a little bit of adrenaline is always good, but I was always nervous. Does this adrenaline just take maybe my memory? Like, if I go on the stage, I forget the choreography, you know, that it takes too much power. So, also, this is one of the things that I really learned also from yoga. I feel like how to manage the movement of the mind that doesn’t takes the power over your actions. Like how to, “okay, you are there and you are very powerful, but you are not the one who is driving me everywhere”. So if you don’t have the power, the complete power of how to to manage the relationship between my mind and my body… So this has been really helpful for me, like, trying to to the understand that sometimes it’s not easy, you know. As a dancer, you have a lot… I mean, dealing with the space, dealing with the dancers, with the music, being on time, like the pressure of, and to have the expression… I mean, I say [it’s important for] my career, but for sure, like you said, to all of us, independent of our careers, [it’s very important]. It’s like all these movements and how not to go like “no, no, no, I don’t care”.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:42:54]:
You can say “I don’t care,” but in one moment, it pops up. So it’s like, okay, it’s there and how to have the relationship… Like, I have a relationship with my husband, with my father, with my mother. I have to deal with that because they are there, and I want a relationship with them. So, it’s the same, like, the emotion comes, the thoughts come, the pain comes —because as a dancer you have a lot of it, that is normal, to have certain pains, because of too much work or injures or being tired or whatever—and how to have this relationship with the whole. And I feel like yoga really helped me to go deep in that and have more understanding of myself, you know. Like, “you have to, and doesn’t matter that you have pain, you go for it,” and you have your thoughts, and you are answering to all these thoughts, like yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:43:51]:
Yeah. But it’s interesting. Because, I mean, you know, if I understand correctly, I mean, I think that, I and there’s a lot of people say about contemplative practices, I’m gonna say, let’s say the yoga is included in that. Meditation would be included in that. Martial arts may be included in that. Some other kind of somatic practices would be included in that. It sounds like you had developed strategies to observe and analyze those situations in order to be able to process them as opposed to building strategies to put them aside, you know, like which is what you see in acting, dance, competitive athletics. There’s anxiety, then there’s a performance-based adrenaline thing which comes up. Then there’s how one would deal with those different situations, whether that would be through more of a contemplative approach or, counseling, on some level like a psychological counseling depending on the on the level that you’re performing, whether there would be a psychological counselor to come in or some sort of a coach to become in to help you differentiate.

Patrick Oancia [00:45:12]:
But a lot of people have these strategies which sometimes I think could be useful and saying the, oh, fuck, you know, like here I am in this situation. No time to analyze right now. So I better put this here into this compartment and not now.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:45:31]:
I mean, come later. Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [00:45:32]:
It’ll come later. But yeah. Whether we come later or not to that is also something that’s like we you could say unpacking that drawer, you know, the compartment, whether that’s done like immediately or at some point down the future, spontaneously, that compartment explodes. And then so I’m curious. And then, have we not, had this experience of understanding how to deal with it psychologically or somatically through some sort of a practice or contemplative practice? What would happen at that point? Yeah. Will you see people have a complete breakdown? You know, like, can they become, dysfunctional? They wouldn’t be able to continue with their career for there’ll be some physical thing could happen too, like, you know, there there would be no physical problems all of a sudden. There’ll be a knee problem

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:46:22]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [00:46:22]:
A back problem or something. So as we know very well, you know, physical pain… we can transcend physical pain, but physical pain could be a very good indicator, a message of, “okay, you need to start to deal with the, stuff here.” So . Was there… In my talking to you, it seems like you were always able to to to immediately address it. Mhmm. But were there times where you didn’t? You just you you put it away and then it came up later unexpectedly?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:47:15]:
Of course. Yes. Especially, I consider myself a woman with a lot of energy. I always had it, a lot of energy. So with age, I realized that I still have a lot of energy, but sometimes I felt like, oh I cannot hold it so long, you know? But I realized when I was in Germany it was a situation in my life that I realized, I said to my ex husband, you know, Mohan, I feel like, I need to reduce the work, because I feel, maybe I will hate my career if I don’t stop right now and I couldn’t understand what what was happening. We were independent, so we had to do a lot of work. I loved it, I loved everything and what I’ve been learning with Mohan, what I have been building with him, it’s just like amazing. I loved it, but definitely it was too much. You know, sometimes we think we are the only ones who can really understand it, we are the only ones that really do it, how we really we want to do it, and to be free of this part of us, for a certain time is good, but for a long term it’s like impossible to hold it. And then I realized that with time, unconsciously, I was doing that what you just explained literally, like I was putting it aside. And I couldn’t believe it at the moment because I thought my attitude was the right one. Actually it was the right one because I had to learn it on this way, you know. But then definitely, definitely what I was doing sometimes was just an excuse. There is balance as well. If you are the whole time excusing the other one and trying to be in the place of the other one, this extreme is also not good, you know. It’s great to have it, you know, it’s not that I would say to my parents, “you should have taught me that it’s not always good.” Because it was very good.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:49:23]:
I really think that it was very good and I of that that they gave me that. Nut on the other hand, of course, without being conscious of that, I also was trying to excuse certain situation in my life, like it’s okay, it’s because it’s too much of that. And I have consideration and I have patience of that, and wait and wait and wait. But definitely, all that was also sucking a lot of energy. And somehow I felt it in my body, like I said, like I don’t know, but I feel I am too tired. I wasn’t used to feel tired. So all the signals… To be a dancer, I’m very happy because it’s like the connection with my body. And I understood with time, with years, that the body is always telling you everything. But we are so…

Patrick Oancia [00:50:26]:
Disconnected.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:50:26]:
Disconnected and sometimes we have a word in Spanish. it’s called “terca”, “terco”, to be “terco”. You know what I mean?

Patrick Oancia [00:50:26]:
No. Explain.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:50:26]:
You say, like, “Don’t touch the fire!” But you’re…. [facial expression] Like, “it’s better you do that way, and you go again this way,” and sometimes it’s like, “Yeah…”, you have a character and it’s good and you go for it, and it doesn’t matter what people say, you do it, and you do it, you do it, you do it, and you make it. So it’s not bad. Because I feel this also makes me realize my dreams because I was like I do it, I do it, I do it. But on the other hand also sometimes is the balance, you know.

Patrick Oancia [00:51:00]:
Yeah. It’s a way it’s interesting. I had this conversation with, Cheo, your current partner, and, and, yesterday when we were up on the mountain having a having a drink after the weekend, staring down at the paragliders and, we were talking about you and Cheo said, yeah, you know, when I met Maria Lucia, I thought to myself, “What the fuck, Who is this woman? When she has an idea, she doesn’t think, she just goes, and you’re thinking, hey, are you gonna be okay?” And he said, this is the thing that just grabbed me. He seen he said, it seemed totally unreasonable what she was doing that the reality is that what she did, she manifested in some way. And I mean, I I can understand that too because I think we’re very similar characters now. Yes. I would I’d like like to just mention something there too as well, but you and and this is we’re really interested to hear now about TANZMOTO. Everything you just said about we were independent and we had to do everything ourselves.

Patrick Oancia [00:52:06]:
I think it’s kind of a like you were very busy also we were very busy in Japan and it’s around that time that we met and, I think that was part of the… the prominent factor of our collaborations together with you, because Mohan also has the character where he’s driven forward and he just want he she had an idea in his head. He wants to try something. So open to experiencing things and not thinking about the consequences so much. Tell us a little bit about the conception of of TANZMOTO and it’s very important for people to understand that, TANZMOTO was, something that Maria Lucia developed with Mohan Thomas, her ex husband, in Essen, and it was a dance company, but also ended up being an educational format as well too for their students in, in Germany.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:52:58]:
Yes. Right. So, actually, when, when we create the company, I was still at univeristy. I was in my 3rd year, and I think it’s a nice story I wanna tell. We Arts 3 sisters, and my older sister was in New York, and because we kind of like missed each other. When I came here, she wasn’t here, then I left and then she came here. So like that, it happened for 2 years, so I didn’t see her. And my sister Ana Milena says, you know what? I buy you the ticket, I buy the ticket for you and you come, I need to see you. And I was like, okay.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:53:35]:
So she was in New York and, Mohan said to me, you know what? What about if I go and then she knows me also and and then we can be with her. She will be also more quiet and happy because she had been like my mother as well somehow. So we went there, but in the year of 2003, we did our first big production called “Orientation”. Mohan, has his father from Sri Lanka and his mother from Germany, and this influenced him a lot in his arts and personality. So, he was always very interested in all the oriental culture and Turkey and in Asia, and he was very curious about life as well. So, he had some Turkish musician friends, and, then we developed a piece called Orientation, it was based on the Sufism, and we worked with a real dervish, it was amazing. We learned how to turn. And the piece was like 3 of us, we were turning and actually I was getting dizzy. Even if you just take me to the corner, so the choreography was a big challenge for me because I was turning and turning and turning.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:54:51]:
How, how long did you have to spin?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:54:54]:
The piece was 1 hour.

Patrick Oancia [00:54:56]:
Spinning for 1 hour?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:54:58]:
No. No. We interchange the moments, like, we learned traditional with him, with the dervish, but the choreography was a contemporary choreography. So, Mohan was spinning like…

Patrick Oancia [00:55:16]:
I can imagine.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:55:18]:
Yes. Yes. So fast. So fast with electronic music because he he had a lot of influence with electronic music and he was doing, like, a very quick movements while he was just turning, and I was more expressing with… I had a big skirt, kind of like Colombian and Contemporary, very mixed, and I was doing it with some folkloristic movements and energy, and then the dervish. But then also with other costumes, we were like planets, like in the space with a lot of different forms of turning. And the were also very beautiful drummer from Colombia, so the music was traditional, and crossover, like electronic, like everything. But I don’t want to go too much on that, but it was very important the piece. Why? At that time, we had VHS, and he said, you know what, let me just just bring some copies and just knock the doors in New York and who knows, like, okay, you know, I’m always like, yes, okay, let’s go, let’s do it. So we went to New York to my sister, and then we knocked some doors. Actually, we were also in this library where all videos of the contemporary dance and we left this VHS. It is some somewhere there. So we were very proud and we went also to the Soho, Soho Theater. They have a big theater and a small one and then we brought it also there. We went to Germany and maybe, like, 1 month or 2 months after that, we got the invitation.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:57:02]:
We couldn’t believe it. It was, like, really? So we were really happy and somehow our name of the company wasn’t really done already. Like, we were just, like, starting. So we have somehow this invitation to New York. It pushed us to to have everything in order to the, to to do everything formally. And in 2004, we flew to New York, with a lot of effort and we went to the musician, we went with a dancer, and we we had, I think was 3 nights or 2 nights full. We were reviewed in the New York Times, very beautiful reviews. My whole family from us USA fly to New York and came to see me. This was very special for the, and, from this moment on, the first duo we did with Mohan was about yoga.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:57:57]:
We did a duo first and then we did this big production. This was more bigger. And from this time on, like, every year or every 2 years, we were creating a production.

Asia Shcherbakova [00:58:08]:
And you were traveling with your productions all around the world, right?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:58:14]:
Yeah, we traveled within Germany, but what happened is something very important in our life. I say in his life, well, I am sure it’s true. It’s a very special choreographer called Royston Maldoom. He’s Scottish and, he creates, a kind of like community dance and, he got very famous, very, very famous because they did a film with him in Berlin with the Philharmonic Orchestra and the were like over 100 students, like the never danced for, never ever, and they did Sacre from Stravinsky, and the film is called “Rhythm is It!” I really, really recommend it. And he was looking for assistant to do a project in Marl, the place where I’m going to fly this year in May and dance. And, so Mohan applies and they connect immediately. They connect immediately and then they start to work together and then I came also there. I had a big opportunity to dance a duo, from Royston, and we connecting in all terms, and we have done so many projects together, like, we worked for almost over 12 years. And we started to work with him with all this concept of community dance. So, somehow something happened in Germany.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [00:59:57]:
I believe through Royston that schools realized how important it is to do these kinds of projects with the students. How much especially for these students that you say like “he will never learn”. No really, I went to many schools and they said to me, you know, Maria, if you want, before you start, I take Patrick out because he will never. And I’d say, no, thank you. We always say: we don’t want to know the life of Patrick. You know him with this structure, but please let us know him as new. So this was our philosophy somehow. We went to all these schools. We did, like, 1-year projects, 3 months projects, 1 month, 1 week, 3 weeks, all was very different, but then Germany started to really support projects to go with professionals, dancers, artists, choreographers.

Patrick Oancia [01:00:55]:
I mean, I remember you you were getting so much, financial support in Germany for your productions as well Yes. Projects.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:01:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. This was amazing. It was a very beautiful time. People, had such amazing experiences, so all these times, it confirmed for me how important it is to get in contact with your body and get in contact, without words with other people. How many things happen and how you have to open your senses, you know, you have to dance with 100 people. You cannot think, what I’m gonna play right now, or what I’m gonna eat. You cannot.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:01:40]:
You can die because if you run, and if you are not aware, it’s just absolutely dangerous. So you got, like, 60 people running to one side and then the others cross over and, you know, it’s like you have to be completely aware. And how much you could teach about respect, communication, dialogue, listening, speaking without speaking. Like, how important it is that we have a duo and we have 5 rehearsals and you come to 2 rehearsers, so frustrating for your partner because you are not there, so she cannot practice or he cannot practice, and how important is the commitment, no? And how much the consequences are when you say yes and then you don’t do it, like how the discipline is not because somebody tell you to be on time or to be at all rehearsals. But if you want to build something, how important is the quality of your being there, you know? So, I loved it. I really, I knew it in my heart.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:02:45]:
I remember when I was at the university and finished and all my friends were doing like 1,000 of auditions and I was like strange, I’m different. I’m not on that. Of course, I connect with Mohan and we wanted to create the company and we want to do, but on one hand I thought okay I want to experience because still it’s part of the skills to be there and present yourself, you know, to do the audition. So I did maybe 1, 2, but I really didn’t feel connected. It’s not the way I want, it’s the way of many dancers, of course.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:03:18]:
You go from one city to the other, from one company theater to the other to do the auditions, but I knew inside of myself, of course, I wanna be on the stage because it’s another topic, very magical thing, but this — sharing and trying to bring the other people, living these experiences that you cannot explain with words is for me like maximum.

Patrick Oancia [01:03:42]:
But you’re, I mean, you you’re predominantly committed to everything you were doing with TANZMOTO. You didn’t go off and do a lot of auditions..

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:03:52]:
No. Never.

Patrick Oancia [01:03:53]:
That’s that’s really that’s really cool.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:03:55]:
Yeah. I did.

Patrick Oancia [01:03:56]:
A lot of dancers would not be like that. Right? A lot of dancers we yeah. I see.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:04:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know. But the good thing was, like, Mohan, we invited different choreographers, and I had some invitations. So I went in Sweden also, like, dancing with, also with live music, and, I had very, very important influence in my life with Daniel Fetecua. He is a choreographer and Colombian dancer. He’s now in New York, doing a lot of beautiful things, but I learned with him him at Colombian folklore.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:04:30]:
So we created a company called Pajarillo Pinta’o, while I was a student at the university and we traveled a lot. I went to Qatar, to Italy, Sweden, to different parts in Germany. I was amazing. I loved it, and I learned a lot through him from Colombian folklore that really gave me a lot of knowledge, way of teaching, and reach my culture somehow. It was it was really good to to feel somehow connected. We did an amazing program, and we traveled a lot with with this company as well. So even if I was with TANZMOTO you know, all these choreographers came and then came Royston and I was like every second with him was just learning. He’s a big mentor for me, very important in my life.

Patrick Oancia [01:05:22]:
Royston Maldoom.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:05:23]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [01:05:24]:
Yep. Yes. We’ll mention that also in the show notes. I mean, it’s the just a day, we wanna talk a little bit about Mukti as well because it’s it is the the part of the trajectory, but in relation to to TANZMOTO, what was the biggest thing you learned from that whole experience of building TANZMOTO’s programs? I mean, another thing I also like to mention the TANZMOTO was also in my visits to Germany. I was invited to to coteach with you guys

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:05:59]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [01:05:59]:
At a school with a bunch of kids from that that that were from sort of an unfortunate.. would that be correct to assume, like, maybe not, like, a little bit from backgrounds which have maybe been a bit difficult.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:06:16]:
Yes.

Patrick Oancia [01:06:16]:
Young kids, the ages maybe being between, if I remember correctly, was it about 8 and 14 years old? Something about 8 and 14 years old. You were doing kind of a lot of outreach stuff like that too. It was very interesting. And not just dancing, but working with these kids to help them to express themselves, doing some yoga with them, doing some dance with the, alongside of all the productions you did, alongside of having your own studio where you taught dance, where you taught yoga, where you taught other practices, what what was the biggest thing that you got out of that experience with TANZMOTO? I mean, I know there’s many, but if you could just sort of, you know, sum that up. What was the biggest thing that came out of it. Because you say it wasn’t just a dance company. There were so many things you were involved as being educators. You were doing outreach in your community. So what what was the biggest thing you got from that?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:07:07]:
Wow. It’s incredible question, because, you know, it have been like the half of my life being with. So to summarize that is really hard for me, but I will say,

Patrick Oancia [01:07:20]:
We can always have a longer conversation at another point in the future about TANZMOTO specifically.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:07:28]:
Yes. Yeah. I have a little break because I wanna cry. Yeah. So yes. I don’t know, but it just came. Yes. So many years, you know?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:07:44]:
That’s okay. Yes. I think, there are many, many things, but one of the most beautiful things is that to bring space of authenticity, to be yourself, inspired me, on my on my work. Like, we wanted to try let other people be them themselves, you know. Sometimes, you think this is myself and then it’s just a delusion, but as soon as you think this is yourself and you give the space for exploring and expressing yourself, for me, it has been so important. I never had to pretend to be anything with TANZMOTO, so I always could be myself and, and develop myself. I had, moments of being as a performer or choreographer, but, especially, as a performer, Mohan and Royston, and especially both of them, they will never say to me “you have to”. You know? Mohan was very hard.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:09:14]:
Most very, like, a strong character and maybe not soft speaking, but when you understand the others, so you don’t take it personally, but still sometimes is very sensitive. But I loved it because, Royston always said to me, like, when at the conference you explained how to take the glass, you remember? You did 3 different movements, let’s say, like, 3 different possibilities of performing action, and when I had to learn sometimes the most of the pieces I did, I was part of the creation, so it’s more authentic because you are putting your own movements and it’s not that you have to learn something, but one of my most important pieces that I performed as a dancer was, the last piece I did before I came to Colombia and it was a wish, it was amazing choreography from Royston and Royston said to me, and I am so happy for that because he said, you are so free to change anything from the choreography. If you feel that the idea of the expression for you feels more natural, if you do it, like this or if you do it, like this, you know, similar to what he was explaining, He said feel free to just, adjust it. So this is for me “art”, like the is never a performance that is the same. It’s never a movement the same, you know, maybe the intention, maybe the, the idea, maybe the shape, but it’s never the same. So maybe I take that from TANZMOTO because this inspired me also in my actual actual project as well.

Patrick Oancia [01:11:17]:
Currently? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That’s thank you And so let’s talk about the actual project. This is a great time to bring it in. Yeah. So you left Germany in 2018. You came back to Colombia.

Patrick Oancia [01:11:30]:
Mukti was conceived a year after or 2 years after?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:11:37]:
Like 2 years, a little bit longer than 2 years. Yeah. 2 years and a little bit.

Patrick Oancia [01:11:41]:
Okay. So, first of all, can you explain the concept behind Mukti? Okay. So Mukti for those of you listening and watching is a studio which offers interdisciplinary learning in different movement practices which are including yoga and, dance. So please tell us the full name of the studio and the concept behind that name. Yeah. Okay.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:12:12]:
So The name is Mukti Espacio Vivo, and Mukti is a word from the Sanskrit language, and it means, well, I always say it in Spanish, yes, Liberacion y Connection, like liberation and connection with your pure part of yourself, with the pure part of yourself. And Espacio Vivo is like lived or life space, no? So why I took this this name, I mean, I didn’t wanted to call the space like liberation because sounds like too hippie, you know, like liberation space. and I realized like the word in Sanskrit, I love it because if you translate it it’s like a poetry, you know, it’s not just like literally like we do in English and Spanish. And somehow put in one word is what I want, yeah, the purpose of the space. The concept is that the people who go there have —through movement, breathing, or art— a space to connect with themselves, right? So I will not, I will just give a platform of connection with yourself. So on many occasions, we are always like running, doing things for the kids, for the company, for the, yeah, to get money to, you know always functioning for the society, for the family, for your, what the body is asking you to get and what all these wishes and that. And it’s so difficult to stop, you know. We have in Germany, the winter, spring, summer, we have in Colombia 12 months summer. So you don’t have this culture of becoming quiet, being alone, coming home and just being in silence, like it’s not the culture. Many of us we do it, but it’s not the normal. I never have been alone before I went to Germany. I didn’t know what it meant to be alone.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:14:23]:
I cried every night when I was alone.

Patrick Oancia [01:14:25]:
Sorry. I was laughing. It’s, I understand it, but a little bit from Japan as well

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:14:31]:
Yes. Yeah. For sure. I was crying every night. I was it was terrible to be alone and now I love it, you know, I mean it’s a very, it’s a very profound experience to be alone because you are never alone. No, but you know what I mean, so I thought, I have heard so many stories because I have been working with so many people. So when you are in a yoga class, or if you are in a dance class, I was telling you at the beginning is a intimacy moment, so we don’t just, we try, I mean sometimes it just just automatically, but it’s not the point of, it’s the moment where you open and you can be yourself fragile, strong, vulnerable, you know, you can just be. So I have heard so many stories, so many things, you know, I’ve been at the work with TANZMOTO, I come a little bit back, We worked with a lot of people from Syria, Afghanistan, Africa, that they just saw their families exploding through the world, you know, like extreme situations and to see how the moment of just being quiet and feeling yourself, how healing it is, the healing, what is going on in there was amazing.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:15:56]:
How the people just, I remember even in Japan when I gave a yoga class and the student just started crying and he said, I’m sorry. He apologized the whole time, he said like, don’t worry, you know, we just did a normal, let’s say normal class, but maybe it was for him the moment of stopping and just release. So I will not call myself a psychologist, I will not call myself a therapist, I will not call Mukti the space, where you will have… I don’t want to put a name, it’s like it’s a concept of giving yourself a moment to stop and to connect with you, but real, not connect with the…

Patrick Oancia [01:16:38]:
Phone.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:16:41]:
Exactly, just

Patrick Oancia [01:16:43]:
But, so I mean and then similar to that of TANZMOTO and I mean, this is something we’ve seen from here, and this is also something we now experience. We see you’re so connected with the community. You’re connected with the univeristy. You’re connected with the hospital. You’re connected with, the, creative arts community here. You’ve explained to us that you that you’ve already done lots of creative projects. You’ve done choreographed productions. You’ve done, programs where you’ve gone off and taught, body related somatic practices including yoga and dance to, you know, the hospital and to the you know? And now you’re also building, an affiliation with the university here to do these things.

Patrick Oancia [01:17:23]:
So, you know, my understanding is that the concept is that you do have the physical space here but obviously it’s expanding out into the community too.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:17:31]:
Completely. It’s part of the concept the part of the concept is to create “red”. How do you say “red”? “Red” like, network. So for me, with the beginning on, that’s what I didn’t open immediately in Mukti because I already had the idea of my mind. I had some, I wrote some stuff, but suddenly life, I wanted to do a break and then somehow I started working with the major, with the project, with the project, and this was good to arrive because I thought I saw it, how was in Germany, like, my students, even if they were much older than me, they would always me always ask me such subtle questions and, and they wanted to hear my opinion, So I had to I felt like it is a big responsibility. I never thought, like, this is the right this is the wrong, but I say, okay. I went to this doctor. I felt very good.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:18:31]:
Maybe you can try it out or I went to this place and I think I can recommend it, like, we were with you so we brought you, I we recommend, you know, like like you can recommend, you can. So I knew this will happen here and I thought, okay, if this happened here, I don’t have the network, not yet. I mean, although I was coming every year here and my family is very big and we are kind of like very connected in this little, city, so this is half adventures. I didn’t have this community, this network,

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:19:02]:
But I knew it from the beginning of that Mukti I want to develop this network because when people get aware of themselves through movement, through art, through breathing, they want more. And this is why I experienced it in myself and I experienced at the community in Germany. So, I thought I just want to give the platform like yoga classes and dance classes and finish, because I know it will grow the awareness, oh, I hope also, you know, so that’s why Mukti has 3 arms, like the first one is to to have a regular practice. Whatever you decide, you don’t have to do I mean, is everything what I have done at university, like ballet class, contemporary, yoga, and flamenco I didn’t put, not yet, but maybe it is growing on that, but basically that, and Afro Dance. So the second arm are the workshops. So we bring the experts to go more deep on your daily practice. And the third one are the sensitive events.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:20:11]:
What I put there, inside of that is the are also the artistic productions, because what happened to me is like when I went to a concert, when I went to a performance, so many things happened to me, yes, and for my personality, it clarified things, it healed also sometimes, so I thought— these I want included, So somehow and somehow through the these two and a half years, it happened. So some people knew Mukti because we did the production at the theater, or some things some people connect with Mukti because we did a little market outside with the students that create their own, companies. And so to get the people without wanting to have just the kind of like hippie ones or conservative or open minded, like, for me it’s more like a human being. Also in the sexual way or material way, direction for level of society level is like, they don’t have to look like I look like, They don’t have to like what I like. You know, they don’t take the idea is that you go to Mukti, you take a step, you put your foot in, and you can just be free and try to be yourself and try to know yourself through movemen, art, and I don’t know how to say “bienestar” I think is wellness.

Patrick Oancia [01:21:45]:
Well, yeah. And also, you know, also as you said networking and community, I mean, I think the that’s that that’s a great,

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:21:53]:
This is so important.

Patrick Oancia [01:21:54]:
So, just to wrap up today because I know we have to stop soon. We know we’ve had lots of feedback so far how it’s impacted your community, but we would like to also now that we’re here just to get comments from you on your interpretation of our visit to Colombia and what you thought of the work that we’re doing now because it’s shifted from the last time that we actually met and did stuff together.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:22:17]:
Personally, when I when we met, I will never forget, like, I remember so much about resistance, like, using the whole body to protect. If you come to any of my classes, I will always speak about it. So I have the influences very clear. Because sometimes when I did it through dancing, sometimes these kind of worships and meeting experts is like it is it nurtures so much your, your career, in this case my career. So I’m always interested to what I do the it feels good, that I feel is good for myself to do it as long term as possible. So with yoga, it’s a very dangerous thing and also with dance because you think you just copy. Mhmm. If you are young, it’s fine. You just copy, and it’s good.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:23:10]:
It’s part of the, education and form, but with the years, our body changed so much, and for me, this is what I have been learning with you since we met and since we you have so many years developing this method and, the essense is there completely. So I was so sure, like, what I was so happy is, like, when you have a class and the it’s just 1 hour and you have students that come often but always come new ones, there is not enough space for all the details because it’s so profound. It’s like in the conference it’s difficult to just pack everything at once, to give a workshop, you wanna give everything especially when you feel the reception of the people. So I really feel like the influence is very big. I’m happy for that to also to remember again, and I and I feel like it’s completely fresh. I don’t feel like it was, like, 14 years ago. Mhmm. I feel it is completely there maybe because I also repeat it. I remember, and when I teach it, I remember also to myself. So I’m very I’m very happy for that. I’m really thankful for that. Thank you so much.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:24:20]:
And, the other thing is that now to have you guys here, I didn’t know what will happen. I knew, I knew that it’s important for the city. I knew that’s important for me also. I knew the, sure you are a very serious person and a very deep person the you will not just do some try out.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:24:46]:
I mean, we are always trying out something, but it’s not superficial. You know? So I thought, okay. We try it, but I don’t know how the people will really react because it’s kind of very different. And I was observing people through the whole days and workshops, and I was so positively surprised because I already had some people doing your method with another people and some, like, kind of, like, crush, like, maybe, oh, this destroy a little bit my my form of thinking, you know, they wanna move the whole time or do they just to be so aware of everything, like, you and I didn’t know how the people will really react here, but I had the feeling I wanna do it and I I’m sure you are professionals and we go very well. I’m so positively surprised. So I saw saw the the students, the music student from UNAB, the teachers, and I saw their eyes and I was like inside of myself. I’m so happy because exactly this space of “give people the opportunity” of getting inside of themselves and being aware, like, you don’t have to be a dancer

Patrick Oancia [01:26:06]:
Mhmm.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:26:07]:
To be aware of yourself. You don’t have to be a dancer or you don’t have to be a yogi to listen to your inner voice. We all can do it, but if we don’t have a space for the, to love yourself, to hear yourself, it was impossible to get it, you know. And so I am very positive. I’m very happy, and I hope this is the first time for many, many times. Mhmm. I’m very happy of the community of Mukti

Patrick Oancia [01:26:31]:
Mhmm.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:26:32]:
Because, I do these workshop for two and a half years, but still, like, it’s very clear, like, yoga, dance, ballet, whatever, but this was, like, a new method and, different foreigners and who knows, you know, and and 8 hours.

Patrick Oancia [01:26:51]:
Yep. You know? I mean, I see the series of events across, like, weeks. I mean, Christ was long, like

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:26:56]:
Yes. And the people are not used to it. We as dancers, we are used to that. And sport and, you know, science or whatever is is in is a time that you see actually is not so much, but 8 hours. And, you know, with Mukti, we are doing like retreats, workshops, and the longest ones I did with the psychiatrist and psychologists, and it was a beautiful project. It was one day 4 hours, but it wasn’t really,I mean, it was very dynamic. Yep.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:27:23]:
And this was, like, really the first time, and I’m so happy and proud of the community and of Bucaramanga, also the students at the UNAB. Because they were completely there. Yeah. Completely there with another language and something completely new. And, so this of motivates me to have you guys more times here and, and motivate me a lot because this is the concept of Mukti. Mhmm. Exactly that. Yeah.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:27:50]:
I have a comment. I was just thinking that when you started talking about the the “red”, the network

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:27:55]:
Yeah.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:27:56]:
I also connected it with, just the concept of Mukti Espacio Vivo—Espacio—space. So space, it is a physical space, right? You can enter it. But at the same time, it’s a space— to provide space for something in a more metaphorical way is also to provide opportunity. Right? And thinking about networks, having a network is also something that gives you opportunity. So, over this past week that we were observing how you’re just managing to do things and they they just appear somehow.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:28:27]:
Yeah.

Patrick Oancia [01:28:27]:
I I would I’d like to probably use, not only the word network, but somehow like tornado would be describing describing what you’re doing.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:28:37]:
Yes. Yes.

Patrick Oancia [01:28:37]:
So It’s like

Asia Shcherbakova [01:28:39]:
So the word network yes. The word network doesn’t really describe what has

Patrick Oancia [01:28:44]:
What we’ve been witnessing here.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:28:46]:
Yeah. When you just want something and you just walk and you bump into a person, you, “I want this”. And this person says, “I have it.” Right? But, I mean, but this is a result of having a network, right? So, when you have a network, then when you want something to happen, it’s much easier to make it happen. Right? And also, I think it’s really connected, when I was listening, with what you said that the most important thing you learned from TANZMOTO is the this feeling of authenticity that “it’s okay to do things the way that you want.” Maybe some other people think it’s it’s a crazy idea.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:29:21]:
Right? But if you start doing it, people will appear. Right? And it it’s gonna happen. Maybe not.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:29:27]:
Yes

Asia Shcherbakova [01:29:27]:
But but if you do it enough and if you if you learn how to do things in such a way that things happen, it’s gonna happen. So from this perspective, to me, it sounds like to make something like, Mukti work in a place like, it really needs a person like Maria Lucia. Yes. Yes. With all your experience. Yeah. So somehow just that, the authenticity and the opportunity for people to be authentic, you know, also to be to be with yourself, it also means to be authentic, you know, to to realize what you wanna do, what you maybe you don’t want to do. Right? Don’t don’t listen to other people.

Asia Shcherbakova [01:30:04]:
Yeah. So I somehow really heard how it all connected.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:30:08]:
Nice. And and you know what? The the the Colombians, you know, this is I think it is a good thing also to see. When I was in Germany to understand the culture was very difficult. Because even to ask for the time, people were angry because I asked what time is it and I did all the best to ask in my best German to ask the time and they were so angry because it was so cold, so after I understood, you know, you don’t want to move, you have it, like, freeze in there and then they have to do like this [lift your sleeve], you know, and it’s so cold. You don’t wanna you don’t wanna the air touch the skin, you know. So okay. Whatever. But it was so different and I realized when you are in Germany, you can be 95 years and you can still go shopping, you don’t need no one and you understand what I mean? That’s why you are also in Canada, so you went to Canada to support, no, the family. So in Germany is like you have the government, so you write and I need this and indeed will give it to you.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:31:16]:
Here you can write the government, but it will not work, you know. Here you call your neighbor, your mother, your family, and there are not so much families, like maybe I have the greatest present in my life that is I think the most important thing in my life is my family, but what I realized is like you can create your community. It doesn’t have to be mom, dad, husband, kids. You can create your community independent of the relationship of family or not because we are all connected somehow. It’s maybe sounds like, why is she talking about it? But it’s like in the community doesn’t have to be 20 brothers and sisters and it can be 3, but that you know that you have them. Community is so important for developing, to grow, to have conflicts, to have nice times, to support each other and I feel and what I say to my people, you know, you it’s good to accept that we need each other. In Germany I learned to be completely alone even if I was with people that are around. It was not easy, it was hard, it was sad sometimes, it was frustrated sometimes, but it was also very good to see that you can do anything alone, but I invite people to do it together because it’s fun.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:32:42]:
It’s really beautiful.

Patrick Oancia [01:32:43]:
Well, they the say power in numbers, power in numbers, right, so

Asia Shcherbakova [01:32:47]:
And also just if you learn to do things alone alone and then you come to a place for where there’s a community, you just have so much more energy to do what

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:32:56]:
And different things happen, you know. The best thing in this also yoga teacher say to me, like, Govinda Kai said to me, the a workshop, you know. You wanna practice yoga? And he said, she asked to all of us, so go for relationships. I was like, what does he mean by that? I wrote it, I wrote it down, I was always writing everything what he was saying and he’s like, of course, because then you really go to the practice, you really go to this understanding, empathy, tolerance, and growing together and really dialogue, like it’s really, doesn’t have to be that you have to have 1,000 friends, but relationship.

Patrick Oancia [01:33:37]:
Yeah. And the quality, the the developing the quality of those relationships.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:33:40]:
Exactly.

Patrick Oancia [01:33:41]:
You know, to be continued as I say with everybody because there’s so much to talk about and this was just our first, you know, our first time to do this. But with this program that that we’re doing with these episodes, it’s like a we hope it’s a continuity, you know, of this of the subjects because there’s so much to talk about and and the experiences and perception will change over time too that we’re hoping that this is not the kast time. that we’re going to talk with you on camera like this. Yes. And we’re really honored to have been able to do this here in Bucaramanga Colombia with you. It’s a great experience.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:34:11]:
Me too.

Patrick Oancia [01:34:38]:
I mean, like, to do this talk with you and to have I collaborated with you for this whole week and, you know, we’re just we’ve wrapped everything up now and we’re just winding down, having a lot of good food, having a few beers, having a bit of aguardiente. You know, like, that’s a bit more dangerous, but, look. Thank you so much. Right?

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:35:14]:
Yeah. Thank you too.

Patrick Oancia [01:35:53]:
It was a real pleasure to have you on and and on the episode and to and to hear you talk about everything. In the show notes, I’m gonna be providing everybody with all the relevant links. There’ll also be an extensive biography introduction to everything that Marie Lucia has done in her life up until this point in time and where you can connect with her. And, another thing just worth mentioning is that Marie Lucia will be doing productions in Germany coming up, likely in other places in the world too as time goes by. She’s not just exclusive to Colombia, although her main project is here. And on that note, thank you so much.

Maria Lucia Agon Ramirez [01:35:53]:
Hasta la proxima! Super! Gracias!

Patrick Oancia [01:35:33]:
Thank you very much for tuning in today. And again, please consider liking and sharing the episode with others if it resonated with you. You can also subscribe and set up notifications anywhere you listen to or watch this to get real time updates about all future uploads. And please email us a brief voice memo letting us know what inspired you or pushed your buttons to ideas at baseworks.com. To benefit from exclusive content delivered right into your inbox, consider signing up for our newsletter from the footer on any page of our website. To know more about Baseworks specifically and everything we’re doing, visit our website at baseworks.com.